Curse

upier · Mar 24, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You are setting your own experiment to purposefully skew the result in your favor. First of all, Chaos Storm is not that effective on a moving target, it has a narrow area (adjacent), and monsters easily move out of it in actual PvE, but it is very effective on a stationary target. A stationary target would, of course, absorb the full effect. Therefore, you purposefully bring it on both heroes, casting it on a stationary dummy, then give the excuse that you are simulating CoP, but CoP is a PvE skill that cant be equipped by heroes in the first place! But whatever, from your setup, it only takes time to kill the dummy and of course, it wouldn't take much energy from you considering the fact that your heroes are doing alot of the work to kill the single stationary dummy.

Already answered that.
No point in repeating the same thing over and over again.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

So much for your over-generalization that all damage are havled. The damage reduction depends on the armor level of the target to that particular element.

Well that's above the general rule of armour - like warriors having 80, paragons also,....
Surely you aren't suggesting that you will deal the listed amount of damage once we go against lvl20+ foes?
I remember going with my first ele to RoF and the damage vs those Dryders wasn't exactly something to write home about.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And your godly 75hp is going to save you from a party wipe when it happens? Do you know how much damage monsters do in HM to a mesmer?

I am kiting, I have more HP, I don't put myself into danger, I can slowdown a foe before it reaches me. It's a + + + + ...
And you choose to have less +s.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

It is obvious that Shatter Enchantment requires the target to be enchanted in the first place. Kiting doesn't.

For your AoE and slowdown to work you need to stand next to a target. And in PvE that's not always the most common thing for casters. So yeah - I'd say it's quite conditional.
Ohh and yeah - IF you are kiting - FB is doing NO damage. Since there is kinda no one around to hit.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If your party members kill the monster before you can cast AP, you are screwed since your chosen skills have such horrible recharge. Are you denying that?

That means I didn't pay attention or I my party spiked the foe in like a second.
If I didn't pay attention - that means I played badly. Not a problem of the build.
If my party spiked the target so fast that I couldn't cast AP - that means they are doing massive damage and will be able to take down the next foe with my lesser assistance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

A single target slowing hex that has a negative energy return since it demands a high up-front cost is not worth it. That is even worse than FB, with AoE slow, extra damage, and lower energy cost! And with elemental attunement I have half the energy back immediately. Good luck waiting 10 seconds for the energy return and pray that you dont have more than 1 melee attacker chasing you.

I explained why the Burden is there. It's to trigger CoP.
Ohh and I don't see why obtaining back 13 energy for a 15 energy spell is a problem when you get back only HALF of that?
Ohh and surely you didn't miss the fact that it's used to fuel AI?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

DA at level 7 only gives a net energy return of 12-5 = 7, which is a pitiful amount compared to your total energy cost. AI is good for 1 cast, but AI has a 25s recharge per use, unless your target dies first.

Bolded out the whole POINT of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Then dont use it against monsters with Sig of Humility (which is rare), which would also mess up your build too. Hex removal, however, is more common which would mess up your AP. This is PvE afterall so you can know ahead of time what monsters you would be facing and prepare for it.

Hex removal will remove your MoR also.
The only difference is that I can pretty much use it in the last second - so there is less chance of removal.
Like you said - it's PvE. When it looks like the foe will die - it does.
And yes - both can get interrupted, both can get diverted, bot can get Siggied, ...
The question is - what happens next?
If I lose it - I need to rely on my normal recharge. Which is kinda bad. But considering that most people running a mesmer don't use recharge modifiers - I am kinda in the same position as any mesmer in PvE. Which isn't good - but I can still dish out that 100 damage every 20 secs.
If that happens to you - you become worthless. Because you are using skills with a 0 investment in them. Kinda not the best thing - especially if the damage will get cut because of the baddies having a bit more armour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

A sync with your party is needed because you dont want them to kill the target before you have the chance to cast AP.

I have eyes.
I am able to see what the HP statues of the foe is.
How hard is that to understand?

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And if the monsters wait for you and queue up to attack one by one that would work great, but they dont. Single targeting makes it easy to get overwhelmed when facing a large mob, which exists outside of Vizunah. If PvE is 1 vs 8 most of the time, then you would be right. Unfortunately that is not the case, unlike your single stationary dummy experiment would portray.

That can be solved by:
1. Pulling
2. Not using shitty builds.

Heck - no. 2 is enough.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I dont need cracked armor to work but cracked armor would help. Surely you are not asumming that I am running solo.

The problem - like previously mentioned is that your build is expanding by the minute. And it IS getting better. But not to the level that would justify such demands.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And why are you comparing a mesmer to an ele? They are different like apples and oranges. While you are at it, why dont you compare a monk to a warrior?

Because I see very little what would resemble a mesmer in your build.
Let's consider this:
1. You need a second player to bring Ele Attunement.
2. You cause blindness
3. You have a slowdown.

Now let's take two eles.
One with Ele attunement and the other with SF.
Let both have Mimicry.
Let both have Blinding Flash. (at lower levels of course! But considering we have two of them and considering that Flash only requires a low investment to keep a foe constantly blinded - that's not really an issue)
Let both Deep Freeze.
Let both have Fire attunement.
GoLE.
Rez.
Which means they have one free slot.

Heck one can cause Weakness, the other cracked armour. Or they can bring GG instead of GoLE. (As I was playing around with this idea - I actually didn't use either - so we can pretty much presume this build has a slot open.)

Each of these guys is currently more effective at what your build does. SF blows up when you have more then one person using it. That means that the sum of both guys is even bigger.
Plus they have E-storage.

And YOUR build is competing against THAT.
That's why you aren't doing the mesmer any favours. And that's why your build is a second rate ele.
And that's why I'd rather have those two eles - unless of course the build of your Ele Attunement surpasses them. In which case I can just roll up two of those guys.
While at the same time - my build still does more damage then yours does.
So even if we deal less damage then the eles (which would then be a better option instead of us!) - I am still less bad then you are.

Once again:

Edit:
I am wondering if a Flare spammer would outdamage your build.
Can you test that?
Thanks!

Edit2:
Yeah, it seems your build is doing damage/blinding/slowdowns semi-equal that of a flare spammer.

Edit3:
Dumped GG and replaced it with RI.

Did about the same damage as your build. 10 secs faster though.
No downtime with Ele attunement and no need for a second ele.
I'd go with this rather then your guy.

Edit3:
Ick! Forgot about the 20 sec longer ench mod! That means that downtime isn't an issue.
And this would be a SF ele.

Of course - all damage on AL 60.

DarkSpirit · Mar 24, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Well that's above the general rule of armour - like warriors having 80, paragons also,....
Surely you aren't suggesting that you will deal the listed amount of damage once we go against lvl20+ foes?

Like I have talked about Armor level for different foes before so I can't be bothered to keep repeating it. I am not worried about that and I have stated many reasons why.

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I am kiting, I have more HP, I don't put myself into danger, I can slowdown a foe before it reaches me. It's a + + + + ...
And you choose to have less +s.

You can slowdown 1 and only 1 foe at the cost of 15e. Good luck, like I said if it is 1 vs 8 for most parts of PvE, you would be just fine and dandy...in your dreams.

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For your AoE and slowdown to work you need to stand next to a target.

Wrong! Next to target is only adjacent range, like the range of your chaos storm on a stationary dummy.

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And in PvE that's not always the most common thing for casters. So yeah - I'd say it's quite conditional.

Oh it is not a common thing for casters, I presume having FB under an ele skill must be a mistake then.

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Ohh and yeah - IF you are kiting - FB is doing NO damage. Since there is kinda no one around to hit.

While you may prefer to kite before you cast Kitah's burden, I certainly dont intend to kite before casting FB. And while they are AoE slowed, I can take my time to kite.

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That means I didn't pay attention or I my party spiked the foe in like a second.

Or the target simply runs back to his monk and gets healed, causing a delay to kill the foe and making your AP timeout.

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Ohh and I don't see why obtaining back 13 energy for a 15 energy spell is a problem when you get back only HALF of that?

15e for Kitah (1-target slow) to get 13e back 10s later, versus 10e for FB (AoE slow + damage) to get 5e back immediately.

I dont know why you are even fighting so hard to justify it.

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Ohh and surely you didn't miss the fact that it's used to fuel AI?

You are saving up your AI for Kitah's?

It is crap at 4 Illusion.

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Hex removal will remove your MoR also.

Except that my MoR is a AoE hex, while Kitah's and AP are only single target hex.

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The only difference is that I can pretty much use it in the last second - so there is less chance of removal.

Using it at the last second also increases the chance of your target dying in the hands of your party members before you even have a chance to cast AP.

Either way, that is a risk for you.

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If I lose it - I need to rely on my normal recharge. Which is kinda bad. But considering that most people running a mesmer don't use recharge modifiers - I am kinda in the same position as any mesmer in PvE.

And that is good? Why do you think PvE mesmers have a bad rep for being useless and just wanding most of the time?

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Which isn't good - but I can still dish out that 100 damage every 20 secs.

20 secs is a long time in PvE. Simply relying on just CoP to win your battles is not a viable plan.

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If that happens to you - you become worthless. Because you are using skills with a 0 investment in them. Kinda not the best thing - especially if the damage will get cut because of the baddies having a bit more armour.

Which was why I suggested replacing my AI with wandering eye. Since I wanted an Illusion skill that doesn't require SoI and that would also cause the unconditional damage number to surpass yours, even with the MoR discount.

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I have eyes.
I am able to see what the HP statues of the foe is.
How hard is that to understand?

Just pray that you dont get lag when your foe is about to die and your hex doesn't get removed.

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The problem - like previously mentioned is that your build is expanding by the minute. And it IS getting better. But not to the level that would justify such demands.

At least it is getting better.

I never added cracked armor to my build, but PvE has changed so much that with the new skills and condition, nukers do have a step up, if they know what to do.

If you can add 2 mesmer heroes in your experiment, why can't I add heroes too?

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Because I see very little what would resemble a mesmer in your build.
Let's consider this:
1. You need a second player to bring Ele Attunement.
2. You cause blindness
3. You have a slowdown.

Oooo....what a terrible thing I did. I refuse to stay in a PvE-nerfed world and how dare I added blindness and AoE slow to a mesmer's capability! Mesmers are not suppose to be able to do all that, we should just nerf ourselves and stay nerfed!

By the way, talking about playing a primary mesmer, why is your own fast casting so much lower than mine?

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Now let's take two eles.
One with Ele attunement and the other with SF.
Let both have Mimicry.
Let both have Blinding Flash. (at lower levels of course! But considering we have two of them and considering that Flash only requires a low investment to keep a foe constantly blinded - that's not really an issue)
Let both Deep Freeze.
Let both have Fire attunement.
GoLE.
Rez.
Which means they have one free slot.

So you have water magic, fire magic, ES, and air magic? Spreading out all your attributes just to match what I have is better on an Ele?

And who says my build is suitable for an Ele? What forum do you think we are posting at?

If you say your mesmer build is worse than an Ele in PvE then you are admitting defeat. Rather than admitting defeat, I pull in attributes from different lines to synergize them, which is not easy to do even for an Ele. The main purpose is to improve the mesmer, so I am comparing against YOUR mesmer build.

upier · Mar 24, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Like I have talked about Armor level for different foes before so I can't be bothered to keep repeating it. I am not worried about that and I have stated many reasons why.

Then don't sell your build as 300+ damage build.
Sell it as 300+ damage build VS AL 60 foes.
It's an ele-damage build and that's why it's not optimal in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You can slowdown 1 and only 1 foe at the cost of 15e. Good luck, like I said if it is 1 vs 8 for most parts of PvE, you would be just fine and dandy...in your dreams.

FB is 15 energy also.
My guys will be running wards, defensive anthems, and aegises.
Burden is the hex req for CoP.
I though I said that before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Wrong! Next to target is only adjacent range, like the range of your chaos storm on a stationary dummy.

That's actually funny.
Still doesn't change the fact that you either use it defensively or you go up to a foe. If it's used defensively - it's conditional thus on the same level as Shatter.
If you go up to a foe - it's an interesting choice. For a sup-rune caster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Oh it is not a common thing for casters, I presume having FB under an ele skill must be a mistake then.

In PvE?
Aggro control much?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

While you may prefer to kite before you cast Kitah's burden, I certainly dont intend to kite before casting FB. And while they are AoE slowed, I can take my time to kite.

They still reach you. My foes can be already dead before they even reach me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Or the target simply runs back to his monk and gets healed, causing a delay to kill the foe and making your AP timeout.

So wait - the party has a healer and you didn't take it out first?
Do you PvE at all?

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I dont know why you are even fighting so hard to justify it.

It triggers CoP.
It fuels up AI.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You are saving up your AI for Kitah's?

It is crap at 4 Illusion.

Explain. I am intrigued.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Except that my MoR is a AoE hex, while Kitah's and AP are only single target hex.

Using it at the last second also increases the chance of your target dying in the hands of your party members before you even have a chance to cast AP.

Either way, that is a risk for you.

Kitah should be followed by CoP before it could get removed.
AP should land just before the foes death - or sooner, depending on the foes skillbars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And that is good? Why do you think PvE mesmers have a bad rep for being useless and just wanding most of the time?

I lost my elite. Of course it's not good.
BUT it's better then having spells with 0 in their attribute line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

20 secs is a long time in PvE. Simply relying on just CoP to win your battles is not a viable plan.

If you'd paid attention - you'd see I am not talking about CoP.
Firstly - CoP has a shorter recharge and secondly I have no hex to trigger the damage.
And once again - it's damage I can do compared to you not doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Which was why I suggested replacing my AI with wandering eye. Since I wanted an Illusion skill that doesn't require SoI and that would also cause the unconditional damage number to surpass yours, even with the MoR discount.

I thought you replaced it with RI?

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Just pray that you dont get lag when your foe is about to die and your hex doesn't get removed.

Just pray that you don't forget to use SoI every 3 spells.
Why is playing bad an excuse for you?

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

At least it is getting better.

I never added cracked armor to my build, but PvE has changed so much that with the new skills and condition, nukers do have a step up, if they know what to do.

If you can add 2 mesmer heroes in your experiment, why can't I add heroes too?

Arcane Mimicry.
You already HAVE one with you.
And I also explained the difference.
You NEED to have a certain hero that will do damage, be an ele AND bring EA.
I need a hero that will do damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Oooo....what a terrible thing I did. I refuse to stay in a PvE-nerfed world and how dare I added blindness and AoE slow to a mesmer's capability! Mesmers are not suppose to be able to do all that, we should just nerf ourselves and stay nerfed!

Why wouldn't you be able to do that?
You use your secondary or elites and you have those options. Although having a viable build with those options would be much better.
And that's the problem of your ... experiment.
It's not viable because it can be done better by a primary class. It opens new doors for the mesmer - but considering you need an ele nanny - it's gonna be hard justifying that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

By the way, talking about playing a primary mesmer, why is your own fast casting so much lower than mine?

Because FC is a waste in PvE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

So you have water magic, fire magic, ES, and air magic? Spreading out all your attributes just to match what I have is better on an Ele?

DF - 10 sec slowdown - regardles of investment.
BF - 4 sec recharge, that can be reached with 2 in air. Anything higher is a bonus.
16 Fire
Rest in ES. Which means 13 in ES.
2 maxed out lines like you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And who says my build is suitable for an Ele? What forum do you think we are posting at?

If you say your mesmer build is worse than an Ele in PvE then you are admitting defeat. Rather than admitting defeat, I pull in attributes from different lines to synergize them, which is not easy to do even for an Ele. The main purpose is to improve the mesmer, so I am comparing against YOUR mesmer build.

I have shown you that it IS easy for an ele. One just can't expect to have 16 in multiple lines. Especially if that isn't needed.

Your build deals less damage then mine (That is unless we aren't dealing with lvl 6 foes. I can't compete with that. Your damage would be insane ....). So you lost there.
My build doesn't cause blindness nor does it slow down very well. You won there.
This is a damage thread.

Of course:

(And this is getting seriously boring. We are just repeating the same thing over and over again. Seriously - the only thing that intrigues me is why using AI on Burden at 4 illusion is bad. I am sure I heard everything else already.)

DarkSpirit · Mar 24, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Then don't sell your build as 300+ damage build.
Sell it as 300+ damage build VS AL 60 foes.
It's an ele-damage build and that's why it's not optimal in PvE.

What is important in PvE is AoE damage and I dont mean the kind with an adjacent range that most monsters can easily walk out of. I mean the kind like burning where you can still hurt them even after they have walked elsewhere.

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FB is 15 energy also.
My guys will be running wards, defensive anthems, and aegises.

Oh I guess I should add in your heroe's defensive skills to cover for the inadequecies of your mesmer build?

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Burden is the hex req for CoP.
I though I said that before.

Let me tell you why I dislike Burden. It is one of those energy management skill that when you can use it, you are probably not in need of energy in the first place. It has a high up front cost. It slows down 1 target only, which is useless many times in PvE when you have more than 1 melee attackers. 5 seconds after you cast that 15e spell, you are really really low on energy so you begin to wand. 8 seconds later you are really desperate for energy now, wand somemore. 10 seconds later, phew your energy finally comes (in your case, not much since you are getting back less energy than you put into it 10s ago) and the melee attacker is released from the hex but you cant slow him down now since the recharge is a whooping 30sec.

Oh wait you still haven't killed him? But you have problems stopping to cast a spell now since he has started chasing you around again and you can't slow him until much later. So much for your godly AP-Kitah's burden build, and make sure while you slowed one of them, you are not being chased around by another melee.

Compare that to Frozen Burst, where all the melee attackers chasing you are slowed for 8s, you get back 7 energy immediately and by the time the hex ended, it recharges (8s later), you can cast it again.

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That's actually funny.
Still doesn't change the fact that you either use it defensively or you go up to a foe. If it's used defensively - it's conditional thus on the same level as Shatter.

I would be repeating what I said before. Shatter Ench. requires enchantment, kiting doesnt.

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They still reach you. My foes can be already dead before they even reach me.

Sure they do.

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So wait - the party has a healer and you didn't take it out first?
Do you PvE at all?

So you have only encountered groups with 1 healer or protector?

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It triggers CoP.
It fuels up AI.

It also sucks.

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I thought you replaced it with RI?

I left RI as a noption due to the fact that it has high damage, low recharge. High energy cost no doubt, but with ele attunement it is not so bad.

Personally I prefer Wandering Eye (since I dont need to pre-cast SoI with it) but I wont get back that energy from ele attunement. If my energy requirement is ok, I would bring it.

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Why wouldn't you be able to do that?
You use your secondary or elites and you have those options. Although having a viable build with those options would be much better.
And that's the problem of your ... experiment.

Unless you are totally new to this game, it is already no wonder that Eles are perceived to be more effective in PvE than mesmers are. So instead of improving mesmers, you keep trying to put forth Ele builds against our mesmer builds (even your own), comparing just damage, to put us down.

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Because FC is a waste in PvE?

I can say the same thing back to you, then you are not playing like a true mesmer.

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DF - 10 sec slowdown - regardles of investment.
BF - 4 sec recharge, that can be reached with 2 in air. Anything higher is a bonus.
16 Fire
Rest in ES. Which means 13 in ES.
2 maxed out lines like you have.

It is not just condition that matters, but the damage that goes with it because these spells have very high energy requirements, it is such a waste to not have significant damage with them. You dont seem to think of energy management much in your builds, do you? Even with 13 ES, you can still run out of energy in a pro-longed fight (unless maybe you are a necro

). Personally, I dont really like BF because it seems like such a waste of energy even though Eles have ES. I rather have a skill that provides good damage and blinds at the same time, like steam (104 damage with 10s blind for 5e each time with 8s recharge).

Going for different elemental is also important in the sense that certain creatures are more susceptible to one form of elemental damage than another. This is where SoI+Elemental attunement can be useful.

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(And this is getting seriously boring. We are just repeating the same thing over and over again. Seriously - the only thing that intrigues me is why using AI on Burden at 4 illusion is bad. I am sure I heard everything else already.)

Yes we are. The only thing good about Burden, in your case, is that it is a costly 15e spell, so you feel like you are using AI well for it, even if it is not worth its base cost.

Terraban · Mar 24, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

[skill]Distracting Shot[/skill]

upier · Mar 25, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

What is important in PvE is AoE damage and I dont mean the kind with an adjacent range that most monsters can easily walk out of. I mean the kind like burning where you can still hurt them even after they have walked elsewhere.

Like previously stated - your burning, outside of RI, isn't AoE. It's an AoE hex. That doesn't cause burning it just enables it.
I was about to ask if you STILL use eles for damage - but then I remembered your build that made the question completely pointless.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Oh I guess I should add in your heroe's defensive skills to cover for the inadequecies of your mesmer build?

Arcane Mimicry.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Let me tell you why I dislike Burden. It is one of those energy management skill that when you can use it, you are probably not in need of energy in the first place. It has a high up front cost. It slows down 1 target only, which is useless many times in PvE when you have more than 1 melee attackers. 5 seconds after you cast that 15e spell, you are really really low on energy so you begin to wand. 8 seconds later you are really desperate for energy now, wand somemore. 10 seconds later, phew your energy finally comes (in your case, not much since you are getting back less energy than you put into it 10s ago) and the melee attacker is released from the hex but you cant slow him down now since the recharge is a whooping 30sec.

Oh wait you still haven't killed him? But you have problems stopping to cast a spell now since he has started chasing you around again and you can't slow him until much later. So much for your godly AP-Kitah's burden build, and make sure while you slowed one of them, you are not being chased around by another melee.

Compare that to Frozen Burst, where all the melee attackers chasing you are slowed for 8s, you get back 7 energy immediately and by the time the hex ended, it recharges (8s later), you can cast it again.

You are aware people were using stuff like Mind Wrack and Ether Phantom as the base for CoP?
The reason why I am using Burden is because it works.
And I've already answered the energy problem question. There is no energy problem. So your scenario is just you liking hearing yourself speak.

And I am guessing that the foe just not dying happens a lot to you? That's why you must consider it an issue I take?

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I would be repeating what I said before. Shatter Ench. requires enchantment, kiting doesnt.

And FB requires you don't kite.
So yeah - it's a bit more conditional then everything else on your skillbar.
Plus the fact that mostly something like warriors will even came in your area - and with their armour - your damage output will also go down.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

So you have only encountered groups with 1 healer or protector?

No, but it rarely is a problem.
It's PvE.
You flare guys - and you consider that a good build. That should tell you that those monks aren't very good if they die.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Unless you are totally new to this game, it is already no wonder that Eles are perceived to be more effective in PvE than mesmers are. So instead of improving mesmers, you keep trying to put forth Ele builds against our mesmer builds (even your own), comparing just damage, to put us down.

I am not trying to put you down.
Your build did that for me.
It's not improving the mesmer - it's just showing how second rate it is. (The build and your mesmer of course.)

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I can say the same thing back to you, then you are not playing like a true mesmer.

You are using mostly ele skills.
So I guess playing a mesmer now revolves around having 8+ FC? That means 13 in FC and Ursan? Now THAT much be a "TRUE" mesmer!
I must have missed the memo.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

It is not just condition that matters, but the damage that goes with it because these spells have very high energy requirements, it is such a waste to not have significant damage with them. You dont seem to think of energy management much in your builds, do you? Even with 13 ES, you can still run out of energy in a pro-longed fight (unless maybe you are a necro

). Personally, I dont really like BF because it seems like such a waste of energy even though Eles have ES. I rather have a skill that provides good damage and blinds at the same time, like steam (104 damage with 10s blind for 5e each time with 8s recharge).

104 ele damage.
VS a 100 AL foe that is 52 damage.
Just reminding you.

Plus the fact that your "blind" is a 3 step process.
You NEED Mark.
Then you wand/use GG.
Then you blind them.

What happens if you CAN'T set them on fire? If you missed the guy with your Mark? BF doesn't have those issues. And that's why I'd prefer it. If I want a guys blinded - I want him blinded right away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Going for different elemental is also important in the sense that certain creatures are more susceptible to one form of elemental damage than another. This is where SoI+Elemental attunement can be useful.

Yeah but Flare-like damage is still bad even in those cases.

Of course:

And I am bored in 3 ... 2 ... 1.
Thanks, it was fun while it was silly. Now it just getting stupid.
Flare away. Just don't bother selling it as a good damage build.
It's a fun build at best.

DarkSpirit · Mar 25, 2008, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Like previously stated - your burning, outside of RI, isn't AoE. It's an AoE hex. That doesn't cause burning it just enables it.
I was about to ask if you STILL use eles for damage - but then I remembered your build that made the question completely pointless.

Sigh....do you need to resort to nit picking now? Just get a barrage/volley ranger with a fire string and be done with it or get Cynn to cast up a fire storm or use RI if you really need to. In the WORST case, then switch targets around with a fire wand or something. I dont see why it is even worth to nit pick on that.

Quote:

The reason why I am using Burden is because it works.
And I've already answered the energy problem question. There is no energy problem. So your scenario is just you liking hearing yourself speak.

And I have already stated my reasons why Burden is a bad choice. Sure you can use it if you insist, but it would just be a Burden on your build.

Quote:

And FB requires you don't kite.

Which part of AoE slowing do you not understand? What is the point of slowing down targets if you dont intend to kite from them in the first place? I think you need to think this out logically.

Quote:

So yeah - it's a bit more conditional then everything else on your skillbar.
Plus the fact that mostly something like warriors will even came in your area - and with their armour - your damage output will also go down.

So you are recommending a single target slow that recharges at 30s as a better alternative to a AoE slow+damage that recharges at 8s? Whatever...

Quote:

So I guess playing a mesmer now revolves around having 8+ FC? That means 13 in FC and Ursan? Now THAT much be a "TRUE" mesmer!

And who besides you would be thinking of pumping FC on an ursan?

Quote:

..

Other irrelevant and insignificant comments ignored since they have already been addressed in previous posts.

Quote:

What happens if you CAN'T set them on fire? If you missed the guy with your Mark? BF doesn't have those issues. And that's why I'd prefer it. If I want a guys blinded - I want him blinded right away.

You are starting to sound desperate. Do I need to spell it out not to use a burning build on creatures that can't burn? And not to use your build on creatures that can remove hexes or not to use your build if there are more than 1 melee attacker since you can only slow one of them. Comon...

Quote:

Yeah but Flare-like damage is still bad even in those cases.

Either you are getting old and naggy or you have forgotton that you have already said that a 1000 times.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Mar 25, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

i see a large quote war starting or has already started i dunno.

i feel like i should join but instead i'll just post a build that has probolly been posted earlier.

Sig of illusions
Glyph of Sac
met shower
Auspicias Incantation
fireball
liquid flame
steam
glyph of immolation
open

cellardweller · Mar 26, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

I had a muck around with uppier's build last night though Echovald HM but tweeked it somewhat.
FC12+1+1, Dom 9+1, Ill 3+1, Deadly 9
[skill]phantom pain[/skill][skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]shatter delusions[/skill]

For the majority of the fight the rest of the bar didn't matter because whatever I was aimed had already fallen over and the combo could be started on the next red dot. After taking out 3-4 of the opposition, the remainder were almost dead from the AoE so I opted to round out the build with Finish Him, YMLAD and Energy Burn to mop up and stragglers and perstence of memory to protect the main combo against interrupts.

Doing 100 armour ignoring in the area damage every 2-3 seconds in addition to dropping a deep wound and targetted 60 was definitely effective enough to outclass any pure damage ele, and I'd put it only slightly behind a MB powered RI/PVE skill/Ward spamming ele in terms of desirabality.

DarkSpirit · Mar 26, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I had a muck around with uppier's build last night though Echovald HM but tweeked it somewhat.
FC12+1+1, Dom 9+1, Ill 3+1, Deadly 9
[skill]phantom pain[/skill][skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]shatter delusions[/skill]

For the majority of the fight the rest of the bar didn't matter because whatever I was aimed had already fallen over and the combo could be started on the next red dot. After taking out 3-4 of the opposition, the remainder were almost dead from the AoE so I opted to round out the build with Finish Him, YMLAD and Energy Burn to mop up and stragglers and perstence of memory to protect the main combo against interrupts.

Doing 100 armour ignoring in the area damage every 2-3 seconds in addition to dropping a deep wound and targetted 60 was definitely effective enough to outclass any pure damage ele, and I'd put it only slightly behind a MB powered RI/PVE skill/Ward spamming ele in terms of desirabality.

The AP/CoP combo is powerful, I also prefer phantom pain to burden, you get a decent length of Deep Wound even with low level illusions. The deep wound from Finish Him is alittle redundant though. The main problem with your build is the energy requirement since you do not have any energy management skills besides AP. It can be a pain killing healer bosses in HM, especially those with hex removal. The healing negates your damage and you are practically energy dry. Unfortunately most of the decent energy management skills for the mesmer are in the inspiration line which you have 0 points in. Also I am not sure if you need to max FC for this. I suggest putting FC to about 9 or 10 then pumping up inspiration to about 8 or 9 then add [skill]ether signet[/skill] into your build.

cellardweller · Mar 26, 2008, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The AP/CoP combo is powerful, I also prefer phantom pain to burden, you get a decent length of Deep Wound even with low level illusions. The deep wound from Finish Him is alittle redundant though.

You don't use FH and your main 4 skill combo on the same target. FH is for those left at the end that take less than 1 second to kill because of the sofening from CoP (and hence only want AP->FH).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The main problem with your build is the energy requirement since you do not have any energy management skills besides AP. It can be a pain killing healer bosses in HM, especially those with hex removal. The healing negates your damage and you are practically energy dry. Unfortunately most of the decent energy management skills for the mesmer are in the inspiration line which you have 0 points in.

The main cycle nets -10e meaning that you've killed 3 and brought the rest to near death before you've gone through 30e - the remaining ones are killed by ap->fh which brings your energy back up for the next group.

For the record, my fight with HM Mungri Magicbox and his fellow gardener was in around 10 seconds without me being anywhere near 0e thanks to Shutdown skills like broadhead arrow and brawling headbutt - once they were dead the rest of the group disintrated as usual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Also I am not sure if you need to max FC for this. I suggest putting FC to about 9 or 10 then pumping up inspiration to about 8 or 9 then add [skill]ether signet[/skill] into your build.

FC 14 speeds up the cycle by about ~10-15% compared with FC9 and ether signet which is going to be a dead slot in almost every fight. If you optimise for the easy fights you'll save 1-3 seconds in 99% of pve and come out better off than if you optimise for the hard ones and save 1-15secs in 1% of difficult fights.

DarkSpirit · Mar 26, 2008, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

For the record, my fight with HM Mungri Magicbox and his fellow gardener was in around 10 seconds without me being anywhere near 0e thanks to Shutdown skills like broadhead arrow and brawling headbutt - once they were dead the rest of the group disintrated as usual.

I didn't want to bring an interrupt (I know it would make that specific job easier) since I didnt want to have a requirement of tying this build to a must-have BHA interrupter hero. I tried it out with a generic sabway instead. Besides there are monsters in HM with their own self-heal to negate damages like Lion's Comfort or Ether Feast.

Quote:

FC 14 speeds up the cycle by about ~10-15% compared with FC9 and ether signet which is going to be a dead slot in almost every fight.

I tried this out with ether signet in HM and it was alot better since AP renewed the long recharing ether signet very well, so I can almost get the energy bonus whenever I need it. Dropping FC to 9 or 10 doesn't hamper it at all.

Quote:

If you optimise for the easy fights you'll save 1-3 seconds in 99% of pve and come out better off than if you optimise for the hard ones and save 1-15secs in 1% of difficult fights.

Not sure what you mean by easy vs hard. I mostly play HM nowadays and since I am already used to HM, NM just feels too easy now.

Moloch Vein · Mar 26, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

For the record, upier is basically correct about one thing. Elemental damage is a joke in any advanced stage of the game. That's why elementalists make so abysmal nukers when it really matters.

A basic recipe for success in a hard HM area is Deep Wound, Daze, Weakness and armor ignoring damage. Very little other things are worth bothering with.

As for this... extreme hard-on for caster characters with no energy, no attributes and 630 hit points... I think that's best explained by the fact that I think upier's experience in HM is little to none.

Bottom line is I think the CoP/AP build is one of the best straight damage nuker builds available for a HM PvE area and I'd infinitely prefer it to the common SF/SH ele.

Oh, and [edit:] A player who manages to screw up a recharge from Assassin's Promise doesn't know how to use that elite, it's that simple.

upier · Mar 26, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I had a muck around with uppier's build last night though Echovald HM but tweeked it somewhat.
FC12+1+1, Dom 9+1, Ill 3+1, Deadly 9
[skill]phantom pain[/skill][skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]shatter delusions[/skill]

How the hell could I look past PP?
It probably didn't hit me to use it because I don't have it unlocked on my new PvE mesmer. Never got to do the Caravan quest.

I was considering Shatter though - but wasn't really worth it because all I got from removing Burden was energy. That wasn't needed. Plus I preferred a straight up damage that Spiritual/Signet bring if something were to happen to Burden.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

For the majority of the fight the rest of the bar didn't matter because whatever I was aimed had already fallen over and the combo could be started on the next red dot.

And yeah - I've kinda had the same "problem" too.
For a normal fight you never get to use all the skills. Not with 5 additional damage dealers. So that could actually open up a few new options for the rest of the bar.

But PP is quite genius.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

As for this... extreme hard-on for caster characters with no energy, no attributes and 630 hit points... I think that's best explained by the fact that I think upier's experience in HM is little to none.

Where am I lacking attributes?
1. 14 in dom for damage
2. everything else is utility
3. the energy isn't an issue. AP is the less powerfull skill version of SR in GW (with a VERY sweet bonus).
I don't understand why waste armour and health on something that one has easy access to - energy. There is e-management or one can just swap weapons. (Personally I am a huge fan of e-management - because it's actually fun. That's also the reason why I consider inspiration to be my favourite line next to curses.)

And yeah - you are right. My HM experience is VERY limited - the only things that I do remember doing was helping my guildy vanquish the Rotscale area and Easter Frontiers (well next to doing a few boring missions ....). The guy was able to do everything but that - so he asked for my help - and me pretty much never doing HM told him what to run and we vanquished it.

It's boring (in terms of just requiring to kill every living thing on the map - and that's something I NEVER do because I don't enjoy it), it breaks pretty much all the rules that are designed to keep the game "balanced" - and in the end it just isn't fun.
Besides - at the end of the day - I can always Ursan it ...

Moloch Vein · Mar 26, 2008, 09:19 AM // 09:19

To put it simple... casters have no armor. Give them a lot of health and they're just a leaking bag of hit points. They might's well have energy. Basically in order to save a caster from a decent spike in PvE it's going under PS and Spirit Bond anyway, which actually becomes easier with a bit more realistic health levels.

For example, I could _never_ run any of my decent PvE N builds on, say, 30 energy. The rate I'm burning through energy on that toon is astronomical. I make sure not one single hit of SR goes unused, and this allows me to do a LOT more damage mitigation, healing and general pain to the enemy than would otherwise be the case.

My Barbs and Mark of Pain will do more damage than yours, my Weakness and AoE hexes will last longer, I will be able to sacrifice easier and my Order will do more damage.

Now... true... this isn't entirely applicable to this build you posted. Nevertheless I've seen this rationale very often from you... that "more energy is never good", "high spec in x is useless compared to y more health" etc. And frankly I think in most cases it's a load of trash

A slightly bigger energy bar is going to give you more latitude in terms on which skills you actually bring. A slightly higher spec will make things die (or stay alive) more effectively.

Oh, and... yes, vanquishing is pretty boring. The HM missions can actually present a challenge and be interesting. That's why we play, right? The challenge? I would recommend you to try some of the better ones, with no carebears present.

upier · Mar 26, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

To put it simple... casters have no armor. Give them a lot of health and they're just a leaking bag of hit points. They might's well have energy. Basically in order to save a caster from a decent spike in PvE it's going under PS and Spirit Bond anyway, which actually becomes easier with a bit more realistic health levels.

For example, I could _never_ run any of my decent PvE N builds on, say, 30 energy. The rate I'm burning through energy on that toon is astronomical. I make sure not one single hit of SR goes unused, and this allows me to do a LOT more damage mitigation, healing and general pain to the enemy than would otherwise be the case.

My Barbs and Mark of Pain will do more damage than yours, my Weakness and AoE hexes will last longer, I will be able to sacrifice easier and my Order will do more damage.

Now... true... this isn't entirely applicable to this build you posted. Nevertheless I've seen this rationale very often from you... that "more energy is never good", "high spec in x is useless compared to y more health" etc. And frankly I think in most cases it's a load of trash

A slightly bigger energy bar is going to give you more latitude in terms on which skills you actually bring. A slightly higher spec will make things die (or stay alive) more effectively.

Oh, and... yes, vanquishing is pretty boring. The HM missions can actually present a challenge and be interesting. That's why we play, right? The challenge? I would recommend you to try some of the better ones, with no carebears present.

SR is broken to the extent where you really don't need more then 30 energy.
That's why it screams for a completely degenerate caster playstyle. I mean - just look at the whole "Give us back our SR" threads. People were screaming that them burning 60+ energy in a matter of seconds while having NO e-management outside of SR and being able to pull it off pretty much on recharge is "balanced".
So I don't plan on starting any discussions about energy when SR is mentioned unless it's about how broken it is.

As I was asking before - what good is the extra damage?
IF you get hit hard the extra HP MIGHT be beneficial. One actually might make it out alive. If they hit too hard -you'll die either way.
How about damage? First of all - we aren't dealing with 2 damage vs 100. What we are dealing with 12 vs 15. Same with with the length of how long the skills stay in effect - it will last for 10 secs while yours for 15 or maybe 30 vs 40 (once again - I am making up the numbers - they are just there to showcase the ratio of my damage vs max damage).
Am I doing less damage?
Yeah I certainly am!
Am I doing sufficient damage?
Yes I am!
And that's the point. IF the damage one gains from using sup runes would be MANDATORY rather then only a plus - one couldn't complete the game without sup runes.
I do damage, the foes dies.
You do MORE damage, the foe dies also.
The difference is of course - how fast. And to be honest - I don't remember a time (outside of silly timed missions) - where a few sec difference would matter. Because this is what it boils down to - you do a bit more damage, thus making the foes die a bit faster.
It's a bonus - but I really don't remember where that would be such a decisive factor that we'd FAIL because of that difference. Basically you are giving up bonuses you MIGHT need for something that isn't needed.

Is more good (in terms of damage, better skills)?
Yes.
Is more better?
It depends on what we are comparing it against. And having more HP and armour gives you a better chance at staying alive. And in THAT case - it really isn't worth it. That's why I advise against it.

And no - because C1 spoiled me in terms of what I can do - I am not the biggest fan of anything that is mandatory. So missions are something that I get over and be done with and move on.
I'd rather explore the world. I am playing this game for fun.
That's why I also don't do PvP. It isn't fun.
Would I suck at it?
Who knows. The thing is - I don't care.
I could be the best HM or PvP player there is. I also could be the worst.
But I don't care. It's not fun - so I won't do it.
That's why I only use HM for farming. IF it's fun of course (Brawling in HM is just superb!)! OR if I need to do it so that I can have more fun later on (I'd rather farm for that armour then not having for weeks.)

(And this is coming from a guy who up to C3 used 2 sup runes on EVERYTHING. And what I am seeing now is that those sup runes didn't make up for the fact that I lost so much HP. I also do sufficient damage now - the only difference is that I have WAY much more HP and armour.)

Moloch Vein · Mar 26, 2008, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As I was asking before - what good is the extra damage?
IF you get hit hard the extra HP MIGHT be beneficial. One actually might make it out alive. If they hit too hard -you'll die either way.

Am I doing less damage?
Yeah I certainly am!
Am I doing sufficient damage?
Yes I am!

Well, yes, that's the point, isn't it.

My point is that in Hard Mode I feel the extra benefit from the 75, or 100, or 150 HP isn't enough to outweigh the benefit of a higher spell level.

True, if the monster hits hard enough, and you're not under shielding, you'll die either way. And, if it's an area that's actually challenging... they _will_ hit hard enough.

That's where the extra second or two on the Spirit Bond or the Aegis... or the extra damage ratio... or the extra shutdown strength or duration... or the extra energy pool making it possible to cast the chain needed... actually comes into play. That's why the only time I run with a minor headset rune is when I focus my build exclusively on my secondary. (Since, yeah, as you mentioned, Soul Reaping is a pretty effective energy management tool.)

DarkSpirit · Mar 26, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Well, yes, that's the point, isn't it.

My point is that in Hard Mode I feel the extra benefit from the 75, or 100, or 150 HP isn't enough to outweigh the benefit of a higher spell level.

True, if the monster hits hard enough, and you're not under shielding, you'll die either way. And, if it's an area that's actually challenging... they _will_ hit hard enough.

That's where the extra second or two on the Spirit Bond or the Aegis... or the extra damage ratio... or the extra shutdown strength or duration... or the extra energy pool making it possible to cast the chain needed... actually comes into play. That's why the only time I run with a minor headset rune is when I focus my build exclusively on my secondary. (Since, yeah, as you mentioned, Soul Reaping is a pretty effective energy management tool.)

That is exactly what I have been trying to say. In HM a single hit to my mesmer is already more than 75hp.

I think many people just borrow all advice from PvP without actual understanding of their impact in HM PvE. Monsters are buffed "unfairly" in HM to make up for the inadequecies of their AI.

upier · Mar 26, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Well, yes, that's the point, isn't it.

My point is that in Hard Mode I feel the extra benefit from the 75, or 100, or 150 HP isn't enough to outweigh the benefit of a higher spell level.

True, if the monster hits hard enough, and you're not under shielding, you'll die either way. And, if it's an area that's actually challenging... they _will_ hit hard enough.

That's where the extra second or two on the Spirit Bond or the Aegis... or the extra damage ratio... or the extra shutdown strength or duration... or the extra energy pool making it possible to cast the chain needed... actually comes into play. That's why the only time I run with a minor headset rune is when I focus my build exclusively on my secondary. (Since, yeah, as you mentioned, Soul Reaping is a pretty effective energy management tool.)

For Aegis I'd go with 9 in prot (as most people do). Unless of course I am running a primary monk. In which case I most definitely wouldn't run sup runes because I don't want to be running around saving MY ass.
SBond dies after 8 secs/10 hits. The only thing a higher investment would do is heal for more. You do a cost/benefit analysis for it. Personally - on a secondary monky I wouldn't go higher then 9 - just because I'd prolly run Aegis on this guy also.
PSpirit just lasts longer when investing more. Plus it should recharge much faster then end. Once again - if ran on a necro - one would just recast it. So 9 once again would be sufficient.

Plus the extra second is what is interesting. Is the extra second 4 seconds instead of 3 OR is it 25 instead of 24?
And most of the time - the extra ratio is MORE like 24 secs vs 25 - just because we would rarely use skills that would last JUST 4 secs.
So you are giving up hp so that the skill which will already last pretty much an eternity - last even longer!
And then there is also the question of the recharge. If the skill recharges in something like 2 secs (or 10) and lasts for 14 secs (or 30) - where is the benefit of giving up something that might come in handy for something that isn't needed?

Regarding the extra damage ratio - it's not like foes won't drop dead if MoP will do 5 damage less on each hit. The same thing with SS. Or one or two points less on Barbs. That damage is already so insane - that it really doesn't matter much.

Like I said - it's not like I am against more effective skills. It's just that it's not needed. So why waste hp and armour for something that you don't REALLY need?
Because with sups you aren't just improving your build - you are giving something in return.
For example - it's not like you are running a 7 skill bar - and just add an 8th one. (Which would make the bar better and what people sometimes try to sell sup runes as.)
In the case of sup runes - you are replacing the 8th skill with something else!
You give up hp to get a +2.
And like I said - very rarely is this worth it. Not because we wouldn't want - but because it's not needed.

But like previously stated - that's the fun part about PvE. It leaves room for error (which let's face it - running anything that isn't optimal IS!).
I mean we come here and say "OMG!! Ele damage is teh sux!1!!" and "Chaos damage is FTW!1!". It only takes ONE character to complete a certain task with ele damage to completely negate what we said.
One thing is better - but in PvE - most of the time both will be doable.
But in our theoretical discussions spawned by boredom - chaos damage is better, so are minor runes, mesmer suck, so does mending and necros have unlimited energy.

Moloch Vein · Mar 26, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

PSpirit just lasts longer when investing more. Plus it should recharge much faster then end. Once again - if ran on a necro - one would just recast it. So 9 once again would be sufficient.

Well... to be perfectly honest, and as much as I love claming N superiority over all... N does not have unlimited energy. They just have a bloody lot of energy.

Quote:

Plus the extra second is what is interesting. Is the extra second 4 seconds instead of 3 OR is it 25 instead of 24?
And most of the time - the extra ratio is MORE like 24 secs vs 25 - just because we would rarely use skills that would last JUST 4 secs.

Yeah, that's interesting. Check Weapon of Warding, which I'd really want the 11 in Restoration for.

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So you are giving up hp so that the skill which will already last pretty much an eternity - last even longer!

Yeah, sometimes. Just as you're giving up spell strength to make a character with practically no natural damage buffer just a tiny bit more resilient.

Quote:

Regarding the extra damage ratio - it's not like foes won't drop dead if MoP will do 5 damage less on each hit. The same thing with SS. Or one or two points less on Barbs. That damage is already so insane - that it really doesn't matter much.

Nah, you're probably right, they will still drop dead, just slower.

Question is, will they drop dead in a reasonable amount of time if you don't have the E to complete your chain?

I'll show you my chain for my AP/MoP build:

Rigor Mortis -> Technobabble -> Barbs -> Mark Of Pain -> Assassin's Promise

10+15+10+10+5=50 energy

Is the cost reasonable? What does it do?

Target foe cannot block.
Target foe cannot cast spells to remove the hex (a monk will waste his hex removal during the 4 seconds.)
Target foe takes silly damage.
Adjacent foes take silly damage.
All my skills are recharged.

Sounds like a pretty decent use of 50 energy to me. Could you pull this off with your traditional setup?

Other things to do with a superior rune:

Get maximum duration on Reckless Haste while having 12 in Protection Prayers and a healthy Soul Reaping value.
Heal people for MORE with Order of the Vampire. That saves people far better than a few extra HP.
Create sturdier minions that soak up more of your damage.
Disable a skill for a longer time with an elite interrupt or hex.

I could probably think up something else.

Sorry for almost exclusively using N examples. You know that's all I play, and only reason I actually posted in the thread in the first place... was to say that your contention that armor-ignoring damage was the way to go... is absolutely correct.

You're looking at it from one way. I'm looking at it from another. I know for a fact that my approach takes me through missions and areas faster than yours, at a slightly higher risk of dying. That's not a concern of mine - I don't really mind dying if it benefits my team (Animate Bone Minions -> Vengeance etc.) I also know I couldn't have completed certain missions with Masters Reward in HM if I didn't have my damage output.

But... yeah, I think we've covered it all.